Training suggestions wanted

[wendy]

I sent my 3 yr old stallion to another farm to be started under saddle. After 60 days of training
I realized they were not the talented professionals that I had expected. My young horse was ridden very high and tight in the neck with big spurs. Now his stride is very, very short and it feels like his back is broken behind the saddle. I cannot get any stretching of the neck except
at the walk. When I ask for trot the horse raises his head up high and drops the back. I have tried lunging with long low sidereins but the same thing happens. Does anyone have some suggestions to fix my "upside down" horse?

[Mary McGuire Smith]

Where are you located? The reason that I ask is that you do need "in person" help with your horse--not internet advice (no matter how knowledgeable--besides, the knowledgeable ones will give you the same advice that I am giving you :-) ). I am very sorry that your initial experience was not good. BUT there are good trainers out there. A three year old stallion (or any other young horse, for that matter) cannot be trained over the internet (as you probaby know).
Please don't give up on all trainers. I wish you a lot of luck, and if you are in my area, give me a call....I don't usually take young horses myself, (although I am helping to back a young one now....) but I may (I emphasize, might) be able to recommend a facility for you, or at least give some "in person" advice. My phone number is on my website http://www.iride.at
In any case, good luck in your search.

[Kathryn Elliott]

Hi have you ruled out any physical problems , teeth, back, saddle, checked these first. I had my 4 yr old's teeth done before i broke her I did it very slowly I have a round pen but I followed the Jennie Loriston Clarks videos and I have learned to round penn 'when I had another horse broken from an amazing man Jim Young and his assistant Tristan. It takes time to break youngster be patient ''walk is very important transitions help balance . A horse at 3 is still developting keep to your traing scale . I like to know why the trainers need spurs. My little 4 year old, I wouldn't use spurs at all 'going forward to the leg is important', little steps of training at a time, don't rush your horse. Your youngster is young and it takes time to strenghen the back, rule out physical problems and be patient . Good luck Kathy Elliott [e-mail]

[Kathrine Gilker]

Have you thought of having a horse massage therapist or chiropractor to look at your horse ?
It is also possible that you do not have your side reins adjusted correctly,your horse needs to make contact with the side reins and the reach for the bit,not all horses will do this however, it also depends on your horses neck set,if your horse has a high set on neck sometimes it is hard for them to re learn how to stretch down for the bit sometimes lunging with draw reins that come up between their front legs helps. Best of luck.

[slc2]

I think the best thing is to find another trainer who you like better. I'm not sure if you want to have someone else continue to ride the horse or ride him yourself, but I think either way, you need someone to guide you if you have these questions. A trainer who is standing there offering instant feedback works out the best - any other chats or advice are worth what you pay for them (zilch) and aren't immediate enough.

The simple answer is that the pushing aids keep the horse connected to the bit. If he's getting short in neck and dropping his back he needs to be pushed out to the bit. It can take some time, and some times the rider also needs to bend the neck a little to the left, a little to the right, to loosen up the muscles, but it does work, and it's the only thing that really works.

Some of how young dressage horses are trained is up for debate - some people go all the way to the opposite extreme of what you describe. They feel that a baby dressage horse should be worked like a Western Pleasure horse, with his neck very low and straight out, and his head hanging down, the reins in a loop, and no bending until he is - oh five, six, doing second level, you hear different things, but that basic theme. Some even will tell you the horse shouldn't be cantered for a very long time. Others? He shouldn't be ridden on a contact, he should have his nose poked out, the reins should be dropped, and if he IS EVER ridden on a contact, the contact should be dropped frequently, to 'reward' him and to give him 'relief'.

I don't think either extreme works well. I think that youngsters can be taught a lot without 'jammin' and crammin''. I think that youngsters can bend, be ridden in a connected way with a contact, even with a very slightly deeper and rounder topline(if not overdone and not behind the bit) and I think that's the only way they really learn to accept the bit and be steady on the bit.

I think the first thing that has to be there is if you use your leg, they go forward. It can start to be established on the longe line, and the horse go resolutely forward in response to the longe whip. Or he gets a smack with the longe whip - immediately, simply, just that's it. Very very basic and simple.

Side reins can be good or bad. They can be adjusted very short, so the horse's neck is pulled in kept in a tight, cramped position, or they can be so long that the horse keeps losing his balance onto the forehand, then he will swap leads, cross canter, pull, etc. He might he 'stretching' his neck, but he's putting an awful lot of stress on his front legs going around like that so constantly on a circle, and he's probably also tossing his head up during every upward transition, trying to keep his balance.

If one can get the correct length side rein, there is still the problem of keeping the horse 'facing the bit', with the pushing aids - longe whip while longeing, legs and whip while riding. If the horse is allowed to 'drop back' behind the bit, so the side reins hang down, he isn't learning to reach and stretch to the bit. The pushing aids can help him reach his neck forward.

There is a possibility that the trainer you used didn't do the horse so incorrectly, but that the horse is still very green, and needs more leg than you use, or that he's fresh, distracted or just doesn't quite respect you in the same way as he does the trainer. Stallions can often be quite 'nappy', especially at this age - nappy meaning you put your leg on and you don't quite get what you would have liked - the head comes up, the horse slows down, they get 'hard sided'.

The same things you describe can occur in this situation as well. In either case, the remedy is that those pushing aids work and get a big response. Easy? No, not for most of us mortal beings, but simple, yes.

[wendy]

Thanks very much for taking an interest in my youngster. It has now been 5 months since he returned
from this bad training experience. We are making small progress with the stretching forward into the bridle. Recently I felt him becoming more confident in his work with less back problems so I took him 3 times to another farm for some lessons with a top dressage trainer. He was considerably more forward at the new place which was nice but he also pretended to lose his ability to steer preferring to remain in corners of the arena where he could see other horses close by. After 3 people agreed to stand in the corners with lunge whips to encourage him to keep moving we were able to get around without running sideways or stopping. It was more of a rodeo than a dressage lesson however. After that I took him back to work in that arena by myself, after 1 1/2 hours he was able to go thru the corners at a trot so I stopped at that point not wanting to press my luck. We are now back at home working harder on the leg aids and steering. I also use the exercise of wiggling the bit in his mouth while standing still with my legs on to get him to stretch his neck down. When he does he gets a big pat and a piece of carrot. He is slowly starting to perform the same stretching at the trot but he hasn't
put his chin below chest level yet which is required in the most elementary of competition tests so we
have a way to go before overcoming all the damage done last spring.

[slc2]

"it's been five months since he came back"

"the damage done last spring"

the problems now are because of how he's ridden now. sending a horse off to a trainer at 2 1/2 or younger (last spring was 9 months ago so he would have not even been 2 1/2) could also be causing a lot of the problems seen now, it doesn't help teach them dressage to start them so young, they get all messed up. i might just give the horse six months off and let his body and mind have a rest.

"after 1 1/2 hours he was able to go thru the corners at a trot "

do not ride a 3 year old for 1 1/2 hours, even at a walk mostly with lots of breaks or with tomorrow off or whatever. don't ride a 3 year old for 1 1/2 hours. tomorrow is another day, do not try to fix everything today. you just sore them up and make them angry and less responsive.

"people with longe whips in the corners to keep him going"

if they have to do this, there is something very wrong with the current training he's getting at home.

"wiggling the bit in his mouth while standing still with my legs on"

please no.

"stretching at the trot...but hasn't put his chin below chest level"

Ohhh boy....

Please, please, PLEASE work with a good quality, certified, licensed dressage trainer who starts a lot of youngsters, get frequent help. These are all very mistaken ideas about how to train a 3 year old to do dressage. PLEASE get some decent help.

This is all I'm going to say on this. I don't like offending people or getting people upset and I don't like people getting mad at me, but for the sake of the horse, I have to say something.

[slc2]

added to say, you try to get your horse's head down with standing still wiggling the bit with your leg on, that is saying 'don't go forward when i use my leg', and you see the result, that you can't get him around the ring with out a whipper in each corner. a young horse speaks volumes to us, always with 100% clarity.